<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Is It Dhimmitude If It&#8217;s Their Country?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/</link>
	<description>Arguments for Enlightenment's Sake</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 10:44:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: gaudiatrix</title>
		<link>http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>gaudiatrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 01:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Yes, good point - compelling an explicitly religious observance is repellent, even if (or especially if) it&#039;s imposed on everyone - the &quot;just&quot; and &quot;unjust&quot; alike, so to speak.

However, Muslims wanting women to cover their heads is not primarily to make them profess to be Muslim, any more than a requirement that women in the USA cover their breasts is a way to make them profess to be Christian. The justification offered for the covering-up is (alongside Divine command) a secular one: &quot;nature itself teaches that men are distracted by female hair and skin&quot;. This does not rest solely on the Quran for its authority: we Westerners ourselves agree with the germ of it in principle, even if we think the Islamic means to this end is a hyper-sensitive use of sledgehammer to crack nut. (Whatever &quot;disrespect&quot; women suffer by going &quot;too uncovered&quot; in public is trivial compared to the actual wrong they suffer being punished, whether legally or extra-legally, for contravening the rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, good point &#8211; compelling an explicitly religious observance is repellent, even if (or especially if) it&#8217;s imposed on everyone &#8211; the &#8220;just&#8221; and &#8220;unjust&#8221; alike, so to speak.</p>
<p>However, Muslims wanting women to cover their heads is not primarily to make them profess to be Muslim, any more than a requirement that women in the USA cover their breasts is a way to make them profess to be Christian. The justification offered for the covering-up is (alongside Divine command) a secular one: &#8220;nature itself teaches that men are distracted by female hair and skin&#8221;. This does not rest solely on the Quran for its authority: we Westerners ourselves agree with the germ of it in principle, even if we think the Islamic means to this end is a hyper-sensitive use of sledgehammer to crack nut. (Whatever &#8220;disrespect&#8221; women suffer by going &#8220;too uncovered&#8221; in public is trivial compared to the actual wrong they suffer being punished, whether legally or extra-legally, for contravening the rule.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheSophist</title>
		<link>http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>TheSophist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-86</guid>
		<description>Interesting point, gaudiatrix.  Seems to me that you are focusing on the political side of the dhimmi question whereas I was thinking more on the actual religious/belief side of things.  I can see what you&#039;re getting at.

So let me ask you this.

Suppose for the moment that China (still nominally a Communist country) passes a new law requiring &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; men and women of whatever race, religion, etc. to spend 10 minutes in the morning praying to the current General Secretary of the Communist Party as a deity.

Would a Muslim who travels to China and is forced to pray to Hu Jintao consider that submission intolerable to his religion?

Would a Christian?

Would a pop star who believes nothing? :-)

We&#039;re still talking about equal treatment across the board, so it&#039;s lacking the discriminatory injustice.  But how do we account for the actual belief portion of such a law?

-TS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting point, gaudiatrix.  Seems to me that you are focusing on the political side of the dhimmi question whereas I was thinking more on the actual religious/belief side of things.  I can see what you&#8217;re getting at.</p>
<p>So let me ask you this.</p>
<p>Suppose for the moment that China (still nominally a Communist country) passes a new law requiring <b>all</b> men and women of whatever race, religion, etc. to spend 10 minutes in the morning praying to the current General Secretary of the Communist Party as a deity.</p>
<p>Would a Muslim who travels to China and is forced to pray to Hu Jintao consider that submission intolerable to his religion?</p>
<p>Would a Christian?</p>
<p>Would a pop star who believes nothing? <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>We&#8217;re still talking about equal treatment across the board, so it&#8217;s lacking the discriminatory injustice.  But how do we account for the actual belief portion of such a law?</p>
<p>-TS</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gaudiatrix</title>
		<link>http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>gaudiatrix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 11:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesophist.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/is-it-dhimmitude-if-its-their-country/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>Sophist, I&#039;ve been pondering this question since I first read this blog post 2 days ago. The answer I&#039;ve come to is the same as yours - no, Gwen Stef&#039;s not a &lt;i&gt;dhimmi&lt;/i&gt; - but for different reasons.

Briefly: The offensive of &lt;i&gt;dhimmitude&lt;/i&gt; and its rules is not so much that they are strict, but that they are unequally applied, and used to single out non-Muslims in a Muslim-dominated society. Thus the &lt;i&gt;jirzya&lt;/i&gt; tax, the ban on &lt;i&gt;dhimmi&lt;/i&gt; carrying arms, and so forth.

However, the requirement that all adult or teenage women wear head coverings in public - however unnecessarily strict - is not such a badge of religious caste. All women are required to wear them, in a strict Muslim society.

One might then reply that the head covering rule discriminates among men and women. However, Muslim men have a duty that is also onerous, but unique to them - they must grow beards. (I&#039;m speaking of the strict versions, of course). Now, again, this may seem unnecessarily onerous and therefore unjustifiable. But it is not a way of discriminating against non-Muslims (unless, perhaps, non-Muslims had some bedrock religious or conscientious objection to wearing a head covering or a beard - AFAIK, none do).

Likewise, we tolerate some distinctions among genders that we would never tolerate among religions or races - segregated toilets, for example. A male could probably get away with preferring a male doctor if he had to strip naked: he would not get away with insisting on a Christian or Nordic doctor.

A lot of societies have rules that seem to me silly and unduly burdensome, but as long as these rules are applied equally across the population, they don&#039;t involve the same injustice that discriminatory laws do - apartheid, Jim Crow, China&#039;s rural/ urban internal passports, or the &lt;i&gt;dhimmi&lt;/i&gt; restrictions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sophist, I&#8217;ve been pondering this question since I first read this blog post 2 days ago. The answer I&#8217;ve come to is the same as yours &#8211; no, Gwen Stef&#8217;s not a <i>dhimmi</i> &#8211; but for different reasons.</p>
<p>Briefly: The offensive of <i>dhimmitude</i> and its rules is not so much that they are strict, but that they are unequally applied, and used to single out non-Muslims in a Muslim-dominated society. Thus the <i>jirzya</i> tax, the ban on <i>dhimmi</i> carrying arms, and so forth.</p>
<p>However, the requirement that all adult or teenage women wear head coverings in public &#8211; however unnecessarily strict &#8211; is not such a badge of religious caste. All women are required to wear them, in a strict Muslim society.</p>
<p>One might then reply that the head covering rule discriminates among men and women. However, Muslim men have a duty that is also onerous, but unique to them &#8211; they must grow beards. (I&#8217;m speaking of the strict versions, of course). Now, again, this may seem unnecessarily onerous and therefore unjustifiable. But it is not a way of discriminating against non-Muslims (unless, perhaps, non-Muslims had some bedrock religious or conscientious objection to wearing a head covering or a beard &#8211; AFAIK, none do).</p>
<p>Likewise, we tolerate some distinctions among genders that we would never tolerate among religions or races &#8211; segregated toilets, for example. A male could probably get away with preferring a male doctor if he had to strip naked: he would not get away with insisting on a Christian or Nordic doctor.</p>
<p>A lot of societies have rules that seem to me silly and unduly burdensome, but as long as these rules are applied equally across the population, they don&#8217;t involve the same injustice that discriminatory laws do &#8211; apartheid, Jim Crow, China&#8217;s rural/ urban internal passports, or the <i>dhimmi</i> restrictions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
